This was a question brought up from one of members, questioning about Topping from the bottom and why it's frowned upon. They are new the lifestyle and wanted some guidance.
This is my perspective on it and from personal experience. Please note - I'm going to use bottom and sub a bit interchangeably here even thought there is a difference. I'm also going to use the pronouns he for the Top and she for the sub/bottom. Both of this is for simplicity's sake.
Topping from the bottom is frowned upon in the BDSM community as a whole. (Individually, some may disagree.) It is frowned upon because the bottom is the one calling all the shots and controlling from the bottom.
This is actually a bone of contention among several. I tend to find a few writers creating characters in this manner and presenting it as the BDSM way of life. I don't believe they actually know they are doing it. But the way they set up their characters, the actions speak loudly of it. Some do it on purpose to get a point across. Those that do not, well, I have personally found the said writers have never been in a BDSM lifestyle and don't understand the impact of this type of behaviour.
Sometimes it's people new to the lifestyle scoffing at this point. And above all, I find that the bottoms who are Topping take offense to being told what they are doing is frowned upon. Because it is "all about them" isn't it?
Now why do we consider this behaviour detrimental to the D/s relationship? Here are some of the reasons I know of.
1. This undermines the Top's authority with the bottom ordering the top around. How is this a Dom/sub or Top/bottom relationship if the bottom is the one telling the Top what to do?
2. The lack of respect from the bottom for the Top is distasteful in many of the BDSM lifestylers's eyes. First, the thoughts are the Top obviously doesn't know what he is doing because his bottom is the one calling all the shots. Second, they find the sub to be someone with poor behaviour and self centered because it's all about them. The sub is focusing on her wants and needs. The Top is focusing on her wants and needs. How is this balanced?
A goal of a D/s relationship is for the sub to focus on the desires of Top and the Top to focus on the needs of the bottom. When these meet, it's a beautiful thing.
Now why is this bad? What if the Top is okay with the bottom directing?
Let me ask the question, why does a person want to bottom to begin with? Especially in a D/s relationship?
They want to be the one who doesn't have to call the shots - to live in the "fantasy". If the sub is still in control by calling the shots, how are they going to meet this need of letting go of control?
A common result is the bottom no longer respects the Top in a dominant capacity. This can cause a myriad of downstream effects.
1. The bottom is disrespectful to the Top.
2. The bottom is still not receiving what they wanted in the first place, so they become more unruly and dissatisfied.
3. The Top is also unhappy. They don't know what they are doing wrong. This sometimes causes the Top to question if they want to be in this lifestyle or if they are even a Top. This can spiral into insecurity. When a Top is insecure and not confident, it shows in his Topping actions. His nonverbal and verbal actions come across as tentative which causes the bottom to become more irritated and disrespectful.
Will this kill the D/s relationship? What if our is working just fine? BUTT OUT!
Every relationship is different in the BDSM lifestyle, just as it is in Vanilla. Could this work? I've had a couple of people defend that this is just fine. From my personal experience, it does not work. And when I say personal, I mean ME.
I Topped from below without understanding this when I first tried this lifestyle out. It wasn't pretty. I don't know where that ex-boyfriend is today but I hope I hadn't scarred him for life.
I did exhibit all these behaviours, disrespect, bitchy and mean sarcastic remarks. Not only did it impact our kinky play, but it also impacted our gf/bf relationship. I ended up not respecting him at all and he felt like he was always walking on eggshells around me. Not a good thing. Neither one of us were happy. At the time, I just though, "God, what a fucking pussy. Grow a pair of balls." Now I look back and shake my head at my callousness. I tried to force us into roles that didn't work for us.
In my current situation, I've done the same thing. Not purposely. And it shows. Several of the Dom/mes gave me very disapproving looks in class. My DH was embarrassed and frustrated. I was pissed off. Then I was angry afterwards because I behaved in a shameful way. Let's just say, we haven't gone to another rope class again. And my DH once again backed away from BDSM because of this behaviour. Shame on me!
Still the question may be, well it didn't work fo you, it works for me. F off!
True, this can still work. Let me give another example that may help.
Have you seen those kids who are running all over their parents? "Mommy, I want that NOW!" "Daddy, buy it for me NOW! I want to do it!"
What is your gut reaction when you see kids treating their parents this way and the parents just conceding to the kid's every demand?
On the flip side, what about those parents who just don't have it together? The kids are the ones cleaning the house and working a part time job to help the family have food and shelter. The kid is the one trying to keep the parent from wildly spending money or drinking excessively.
In that situation, who is the parent and who is the child? And how do you feel about this situation?
For more from La Crimson Femme, visit http://lacrimsonfemme.blogspot.ca/
I'd like to thank La Crimson Femme for letting us share this thoughtful post. Feel free to discuss in the comments, but please keep things civil. I'll see if I can get La Crimson Femme and others with experience to come answer any questions.
Great post and I think it shows the reasons why topping from the bottom is not a good thing for a relationship. Thanks for sharing La Crimson Femme. You always have great posts. :)
ReplyDeleteHi Sherri - aw, thanks. :) I wouldn't have created the post if I didn't receive a couple of inquires from new members. Hopefully it helps explain the "frowned" upon activity. Candace made some really good points too in the BDSM group.
DeleteOkay, I'm going to post a viewpoint of this from the woman in our story 31 Flavors, which is about a married couple and NOT club BDSM. I agree with you Bookaddict in that it doesn't work for many. But I want to show where it got Sid and Nick in our book that's drawn from real life. They now have a true D/s relationship or very close to that as its evolving still, despite that relationship starting out with topping from the bottom. Why did it start that way? Because it was a case of. Vanilla and BDSM meeting.
ReplyDeleteOne way to learn is for your bottom to teach you, and darn it all, trying to teach someone what you want before YOU are even sure what that is, means that doing it outside a scene is asking for mistakes.
This point about learning, about teaching a new Dom, was made by Gina Kincade also.
I think the point often missed is that there are a lot of married couples out there in this situation and it's damn hard figuring stuff out when you're not at all wanting to go out in public about liking BDSM and therefore are not going to classes, clubs, play parties etc.
I'll see if Sid will reply.
Who is Gina Kincade? How did this get to be about your book?
Deletelol! had to laugh. yes, it would be annoying to be in bed with anyone who's disrespectful, childish, and snobby like you're describing. whether they're topping from the bottom or not. my biggest issue with this post is that topping from the bottom does NOT necessarily equal being bratty. and i don't know why you assume it does. maybe for you it was the same thing, but not for everyone. ultimately i'd like to defer to tymber's recent post, "Your way is the only way, sit down and stfu." i try to stay away from absolutes, especially in something so intimate and indivdiual.
ReplyDeleteand top/bottom is VERY different from Dom/sub.
arianna
@ Arianna - I'm not sure if you are trying to correct me here regarding Top/bottom and Dom/sub. If you noticed in the very beginning of my post, I clearly state -
DeletePlease note - I'm going to use bottom and sub a bit interchangeably here even thought there is a difference. I'm also going to use the pronouns he for the Top and she for the sub/bottom. Both of this is for simplicity's sake.
I am not equating this with being bratty but I can see how you are reading it this way. Yes, that is a good point which if you were in the group where it's supposed to be a discussion, you would see where we discuss this point. And if you note again, I specifically relate it from my personal perspective and explain why it didn't work for me. I didn't say it had to be this way. If I was going to say that, I would have stated it clearly. MUST BE DONE THIS WAY. I realize others have difference of opinion which is once again why we have a discussion about it in the group I posed this in.
no i saw that note at the top. but i think the difference is significant enough to point out. maybe the next post should be about that.
Deleteand i'm not part of the discussion group so i only have this to go by.
Then perhaps when you respond in a post, you might explain it that way instead of making a point of "calling out a person" as if they made a glaring error. I think a post regarding the difference between the two is a good idea. Perhaps you will be willing to submit a post on it for Bianca. I'm sure she's open to it. If I recall, they do ask for contributors to help keep this blog current with new information.
Deletegood idea. i'm happy to write a post about that.
Deleteand i have to agree with Cari. for those of us NOT in the club scene, what's "frowned upon" in the bdsm community really doesn't mean a thing. but i'd hate to discourage someone from exploring and make them even more worried or self-conscious about doing things the "right" way. it's why blanket statements about what not to do annoy me.
ReplyDeletearianna
@ Arianna - I'm not in the club scene. Your assumption that I am is incorrect.
DeleteI'm not sure why you keep bringing up right versus wrong. I'm not saying there is a right or wrong way. I'm only pointing out the difficulties that can arise. You don't like it, then that's your deal. I'm glad that my highlighting of possible problems only annoys you and you think it's a blanket statement.
What I think you are also missing is part two of the post which is also in a discussion thread. But based on your posting here, you aren't interested in discussion, just telling me you find me annoying.
well your example was from a class you went to and got embarrassed at. most people who use kink in the bedroom don't go to classes. that was my point.
Deleteand you may not have said one way is right or wrong in those words but it certainly came across that way. you likened topping from the bottom to a child being bratty to a parent. the subtext was there. if i'm mistaken, i apologize.
Hmm, I guess I must hang around a different sort of crowd. It could be because I'm Asian. Specifically, first generation Asian in the States. I explain this to you because it might help you understand. My parents as are most immigrant parents who move to America want the best for their kids. They want us to be very educated. I've been told I can stop learning when I'm dead. My parents to this day, still take classes on any topic that they deem of interest. They are in their 60s.
DeleteWhen I want to learn something new, I take classes. They could be computer based ones from CD (I'm trying to learn French again!) or they could be ones from the internet. I also like going to classes directing so I can ask questions. Many of the people I associate with from work and personal life are similar. We take classes. I had even taken years of swimming lessons just because I wanted to improve my stroke. (Totally in a tangent, sorry)
For example, a friend I knew in GR took a class in how to lick a woman's pussy. O_O I know, right? I bet you are thinking what I'm thinking...WTF? They used an orange and went into details about how to do it. I was flabbergasted. She and her husband are not in the BDSM lifestyle. They just wanted to spice up their sex life. That happened early last year. I have to admit, I can't look at an orange the same way again. *giggle*
I thought, wow, I need to find me some classes like this! So I searched around. Now, since the group I'm in contains many members who also want to attend classes but none are around, I decided to post my notes to help. (Yes, I asked if it was okay to take notes first. And that I'd post them. The classes are not free and I didn't want to violate any privacy etiquette.)
So, long story short, I think anyone who wants to learn or improve with a similar ackground as me will find classes regardless of the subject. When I've gone to these classes, many of the people are just there as husband/wife trying to get kinky. The class participation lately have been over half new comers and they just want to learn about how to do it in the bedroom. I was pretty surprised and felt validated that I'm not the only one.
The point of my post was really to get across that it can cause problems - not right or wrong. I'm not really into the blame game. I'm more into, is it a problem? What is the problem? How do we fix it? Does it need to be fixed?
Regarding comparing a parent/child relationship - I can see how you took it that way. It wasn't meant to be that way, but I understand. The reason why I use parent/child relationships in a D/s because of some of the similarities. I could have just as easily used pet owners/pets. I decided against that one because I didn't want people to think I'm making fun of them.
For example - what I originally wanted to point out as a comparison point was Dog owners and Cat owners.
I've owned both. I can definitely say - I'm not a good master. The dog always had his way. The cats, it's even funnier. They train me! They top from the bottom ALL THE TIME. *Meow* - Where's my food, hooman? *rrrrrr* play with me, dammit, hooman. *Rwor!* - Where's my food hooman?
Sigh, I'm a cat servant, that's what I am.
you sound like my husband. not the asian part though he does travel to china quite a bit. but about learning everything he can about random topics. he woudln't go to a class about oral but he'd watch a video. oh god. now i can't look at an orange the same either. lol.
Deletebut similar to what's happened here, we address situations differently. i rely on gut and experience. he relies on facts and education. it's why we make a good team. both qualities are good to have. when we come together with our opinions, we usually make good decisions because we've covered everything.
! Exactly! The two methods are complementary and make a good team. I totally forgot about the videos on-line now. Good point! In another post someone asked about proper kneeling. We have a Top who is kind enough to explain in detail how to do it. I tried to follow it. I really did.
DeleteBut really, my eyes were going O_o and X_X. I wasn't 100% sure I was doing it like she said. So...I searched on the web and BOOM! I found a Japanese tea ceremony on kneeling. It looked kind of like what she was describing. I added the link to the posting and she responded, "YES!".
Videos are so helpful for me. Closest thing to being in class. We found ones for figging, flogging AND fisting for our group members to see. Moving pictures are best, non?
About the oranges - I wish I could remember the details. But basically, if you peel the orange, and you take out one of the orange sections (whatever you call them), you are supposed to lick the gap and it's supposed to be like the woman's you know what. I think that was what she explained. I nearly fell out of my chair when I read that post. Then I looked at the little clementine orange in my hand and I stopped eating it. I haven't eaten an orange since, now that I think about it. Wow, I haven't had an orange in close to a year. Odd. I mean, I don't have problems with f/f sex. Hmm, something I need to ponder about myself. . .
i've thought about looking for videos that show a Dom being a Dom. like, in dom mentality. i figure it'd be helpful for someone who doesn't really understand the difference between being bossy or mean and being dominant. which is something i've heard occurring frequently. haven't found any yet. most are just how-to. which is hard to describe. showing a scene would be better IMO.
Deletearianna
@ Arianna - totally! I think it's hard too. If taken out of context, it can be shown in a negative light. It also depends on the people in the scene too.
DeleteFor example - if someone slapped my in the face, I'd try to kill them. I don't like it. I don't care. Don't slap me. If a Dom did it in a scene, I'd still react the same. The scene would be over because I'd be trying to kill the Dom. O_O
But, I know several subs that love it. They love the gif files and post it frequently. They say how it makes them feel - knowing their position. It reaffirms their status they like. *shrug*
Not for me, but it works for them.
I'm wondering if you read the whole post, Arianna. It is her opinion of why it doesn't work. It works for you. Great. But telling someone to STFU for their OPINION is rude and unnecessary. Vanilla or kinky. And that was not at all what Tymber's post meant. I can say real submission and avoiding manipulation WORKS FOR ME. That it is beautiful and satisfying. I can say I share that with MANY people who've experienced the same. That's not how YOU do things.
ReplyDeleteThat doesn't make me wrong. It doesn't make you wrong. Until you start telling me I don't have the right to my opinion. From what I can see you're going too far in the other direction. And that's just as bad as being a one twue wayer. IMO.
People who don't want to hear any other way of doing things even suggested annoy me.
Thanks Bianca - I think she was actually referencing the title of a post though. I don't think she really meant to tell me STFU, even if her accusatory tone through her written words say otherwise. *shrug* She doesn't have to like my personal opinion or my explanation of the obstacles which could arise.
DeleteI never mention bratty yet she immediately assumes that I'm saying Topping from the bottom equates to bratty. Frankly, I'm scratching my head over this comment. Bratty subs are a different topic that I'm not really good at explaining. I think there are better people at it. Well, actually I know there are better people because someone discussed it as a point in the discussion thread.
actually, i don't even know what STFU means. i've been wondering that since i read it. so, no, i wasn't telling her to do that.
Deleteand you said you acted bitchy and mean and disrespectful when you topped from the bottom. synonyms for bratty in my mind. pulling that from your post.
then you compared it to a demanding child. hard not to get a negative view of what you think topoping from teh bottom is from that.
The thing is, despite some comments leaning toward seeing another POV in the post, each following comment then basically says topping from the bottom is still very wrong. As in:
ReplyDelete"Will this kill the D/s relationship? What if our is working just fine? BUTT OUT!"
And then the post goes on to compare this with a child with terrible parents. This is not the way to show you see the other POV at all. It's a way of saying - "maybe it works for you, but it's awful."
The better way would be to show how sometimes it is necessary for some relationships.
See, I agree with much of what Bookaddict says, in the context of a proper D/s relationship with a Dom or top who knows what they are doing. I see the broader picture. And I can say it without making disparaging comments about the flip side of things.
I see Cari. I'll be more PC next time. I made the mistake of basically quoting someone. I'm still trying to show the facts of what happens and you are still focused on telling me that this kind of situation is fine for others. I have actually no way of showing how sometimes it's necessary for some relationships. I don't know anyone. It is obvious you do since you keep bringing up your book characters. And perhaps you may be in this situation yourself and it's working for you. That is just my guess as you seem particularly upset about this topic.
DeleteI explained my parent comments above to another poster - perhaps that will help you too.
Well if that is the case and you are truly being broadminded here, then good.
ReplyDeleteNo, this is not my relationship, as I've said recently to you, pure D/s is more my thing.
And it was not a case of PC at all. You could have used pet and owner and I would have understood just as clearly. If the example gave the wrong meaning then again, I understand. Sometimes metaphors or examples come unstuck.
If you have no way of showing this "kind of situation is fine" then I guess, despite reading it, you think the book is pure fiction. That's your call. I use it because it is out there, public, and it is the best example I have. Not many married couples come forward and 'spill their guts' so to speak.
Cari... now you know that pet and owner thing is unfair in the sense that you are going to be more understanding of it. ;) You are biased. :D
DeleteI have actually used comparison to animals before and people were offended. It's usually like the people who don't like puppy/pony play. *snort* But you know me... I lurve that kind of deviant play...
Okay, then monster and monsterette? I don't know...plant and seed lol
ReplyDelete*snort* Plant and seed. I know if I said that to my DH, his answer would be, "Come here, I'll plant a seed..."
Deletelucky you. mine would start a discussion on landscaping.
DeleteNone of us can say -- nor is any of us saying -- that Topping from the Bottom is absolutely, positively, unequivocally wrong for every couple out there. That kind of blanket generality would make all of us look stupid. I don't believe that's where La Crimson Femme is going with this post. Just like in our book, Master's Hunt, Derek and I don't try to make sado-masochism for everyone. SM like we portray is not meant to represent the whole community -- a community that is made up of a huge variety of people.
ReplyDeleteThere are two major reasons why we (Derek and I) think Topping from the Bottom is a very bad idea. (1) It is dishonest internally (and I think that's touched on in this post). If you're going to call yourself a submissive, then submit. Don't try to be a Dominant after giving yourself the opposite label. Be honest with yourself. If you want to be in charge, by all means, take charge, but not from the submissive role. (2) It is dishonest externally. (This applies primarily in a public setting, including in public blogs, etc.) By Topping from the Bottom, you give the impression that it's either the norm or normative. This has a deleterious affect on others in the community, particularly newcomers.
Both Derek and I disdain Topping from the Bottom. Yes, that's a strong opinion, but as members of the community for several decades in public settings and as lifestyle practitioners and public representatives (through our books and our new blog), we've seen a lot of it come and go. What we've seen mirrors what La Crimson Femme reports as her experience: it is detrimental to D/s relationships.
i can see why you would detest it. but not everyone dives into something whole-heartedly, like it sounds like you have. and not everyone was born wholly dominant either. most of us have sub and dom parts of us. partly what we were born with, partly what society created. it all adds up to one sometimes confusing, mixed up package. men have to relearn things they've been taught were wrong. women as well. it can be difficult and take time. in that way, topping from the bottom allows a slower start. a more experienced sub can help a new dom adjust to the role. especially a bedroom only couple not in the club scene.
Deletearianna
and that's the good thing about relationships...they are always changing, always growing and developing. what starts one way can end another. it's fluid like water. even though many in the lifestyle like to stick to their roles in their individual boxes, a real relationship isn't like that. it leaves room for change.
Deletethe bdsm extremists are a bit like religious fanatics to me. which is funny because often they are products of extreme religious upbringings, which they shun. (this is a general statement based on some things i've observed, not every case obviously). going from one god to another i guess. or one campaign to another. maybe passion is the common denominator. it's good to be passionate. as long as it's tempered with understanding. after all, don't we all get enraged when we see the "god hates fags" posters on the side of the road?
seems like we can all agree that no one is saying there's a right or wrong way to do things. and that's what's important. encouraging those just starting out to find their way safely and to have fun. cause that's the most important thing. what's sex without a little fun?
arianna
Verity - I really appreciate you commenting on this blog posting. I read EVERY single blog post that you and Derek post, even if I don't get time to comment, or I am reading them from my phone (for some reason it won't let me comment blogs from my phone.)
DeleteI agree with La Crimson and You and Derek as well. Maybe because I chose to get over my issues and just go into a club and classes for training makes me see with Emerald Lenses how somethings should be done or not done, or what appears just, well, dangerous sometimes.
Personally, I don't consider people in the community radicals, extremists, or any other negative term. I wasn't raised religious at all, but I trust the like minded people that are in my community for support, more than I would trust a random youtube video to tell my husband how to use Impact Play on me. I'm the submissive, it is not my job to tell my Husband/Sir what to do to me. It defeats the purpose of me being submissive, and therefore spoils my 'needs'.
hi bonnie. yes i suppose the religious comment came out strong. i have encountered those types, but not just in BDSM, everywhere. and i actually refer to myself with that comment too. i come from a religious upbringing and tend to get overly passionate about topics.
Deleteanyway, i completely agree that in the club scene and in a well-developed true D/s relationship, topping from the bottom is unnecessary and probably downright rude.
but my point is that for established couples new to the lifestyle, where the couples are still feeling things out, getting used to each other, defining their roles, learning, and trying to have fun - or when a reluctant spouse needs some experience but they wouldn't go to a club, topping from the bottom can be beneficial. and i'd hate to discourage people from it when it might the only way for them, in the beginning, to try things out. in fact, i've not only seen it happen and talked to people it's worked for, i am a product of that situation. and i couldn't get to the next step of bdsm (true submission) until my partner had proved i could trust him through topping from the bottom. im not one of those people who can be like, "oh here mr. dom. do whatever you want to me. i trust you implicitly." even if it is my own husband. it takes me a long to trust someone that much. and i needed to experiment first. and i know for a fact i'm not the only one. part of experimenting may be topping from the bottom. maybe not. but i'd hate discourage it if it helps people get more comfortable and confident.
anyway, i think i've communicated my point more than enough. thanks for the discussion.
arianna
I know almost nothing about the BDSM community. I am an 18-year-old female, currently a freshman in college, and my boyfriend has introduced me to bondage and sadism. I have to admit that I was a bit nervous about these things at first, but I came to discover that bondage and pain turn me on sexually, and I'm interested to learn more. I don't have much experience, but my boyfriend has tied my wrists to the headboard of my bed, and he inflicts pain on me in sadistic ways. For example, he sometimes bites my nipples really hard while he is fucking me in the anal missionary position, and I need to try to suppress my moans and cries of pain for fear that someone in either of the dorm rooms adjacent to mine would hear me.
ReplyDelete